Martin Scorsese vs Marvel: Why This Debate Should've Ended More Than Four Years Ago
What started as a filmmaker expressing his opinion on a group of movies has now become a battleground for superhero fans and Scorsese defenders all while missing the point of why he said what he said.
Hello everyone! This is definitely an odd choice for an introduction post, but consider this less of an introduction and more as a rant on a topic that’s been on my mind for quite a while. Some might say that it’s not even worth ranting about this specific topic because it’s been more than discussed about for plenty of years. However, there’s something when it comes to this whole debate that seriously frustrates me and I want to at least highlight the main issues that come up whenever people approach this argument. Actually, I’ve been wanting to do this for a while, but just never felt 100% motivated to write a whole piece on it. Now, I feel it’s the time to do so and hopefully it’ll come out well.
So, what am I going to vent about today? The Martin Scorsese vs Marvel debate. Now if anyone is still here after I said that, this whole rant is not going to be just me criticizing or praising Scorsese for what he said about Marvel movies. Rather, this is going to be an in-depth look at what is at the center of this entire argument. Why Scorsese even spoke out about this in the first place and how it keeps getting overshadowed by his opinion on the biggest film franchise of all-time. I’ll also give my own thoughts on how I feel about the entire situation and what Scorsese said about not just Marvel, but everything else in that New York Times article from 2019. I’m aware that people are very sick of this argument, but hopefully I can bring something of value to it with this while also just expressing how I feel about it. Without further ado, let’s get started!
How this all started?
In October 2019, legendary and Academy Award-winning filmmaker Martin Scorsese was interviewed by Empire Magazine. During the interview, he was asked a question about Marvel movies. Not only did he dismiss them, but he also compared them to “theme parks” and said that they didn’t possess any of the traits that make cinema special. In short, Scorsese doesn’t think Marvel movies or specifically the movies of the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU) are cinema. As one could probably imagine, this ended up with massive backlash from superhero fans and ultimately led to this debate among people whether Marvel movies are really “cinema” or not.
Then, a month later in November of 2019, Scorsese had an opinion piece on The New York Times. In that piece, he explained why he said that Marvel movies aren’t cinema. Alongside that, he also voiced major concern with the state of the movie business. The fact that franchise films were (and still mostly is) people’s primary choice if they want to see something on the big screen, how there has been a decline in independent theaters, and the advent of streaming being the main way to watch movies (or specially non-franchise movies). Among other concerns, he also goes into how a lot of the films today are perfect products manufactured for immediate consumption and that despite being made by tons of talented individuals, they lack the unifying vision of an individual artist.
There’s a lot more within this New York Times piece that’s absolutely worth reading, but what Scorsese is trying to say with it is actually very simple. Scorsese was just voicing his concern that movie theaters would become dominated by franchises and that there would be little to no opportunites for filmmakers who wants to make any other type of movie (comedies, dramas, thrillers, etc.) to get the spotlight. It’s a completely understandable concern for someone like Scorsese to have. While Hollywood has chased franchises before in the past, it was becoming an even bigger issue throughout the 2010s decade and even more so now in the 2020s. Between the pivot to streaming, inflation causing the rise of ticket prices, the decline of the “movie star,” and plenty of other factors, it’s become increasingly tough for original ideas or just smaller-scale movies to get attention in a world where Hollywood is so keen on prioritizing franchises or cinematic universes.
Unfortuately, despite Scorsese voicing what was a real and still very serious concern for the future of cinema, it wasn’t enough for people who were and still continuing to debate on whether what he said about Marvel movies was true or not. This was all the more evident just a few months ago. In September 2023, Scorsese yet again made headlines for voicing his opinion on superhero movies in a GQ article. However, what most people didn’t know (or at least didn’t care to know) was that the GQ article was not exclusively about his disdain for Marvel movies. Instead, it was about a lot of things. The loneliness that Scorsese has felt throughout his life, the process in making films like The Departed or Killers of the Flower Moon, or the reality that he might have one or two more films left in him before he stops making movies altogether. However you feel about Scorsese as a filmmaker, it’s quite a sad but also fascinating article that’s definitely worth your time and it goes into even more detail about Scorsese’s life that makes it such an interesting read. Despite this, what did journalists choose to focus on out of everything that was said in that article? A specific section where he voiced his opinion on comic-book movies and franchises being what makes up the majority of movie theaters. Shortly thereafter, the same controversy from 2019 erupted again.
The Reactions to Scorsese’s Comments
It’s no secret that there was massive backlash to Martin Scorsese’s comments on Marvel movies, but this backlash has gotten to such a point where people are taking his stance on comic-book movies as an objective fact and not just an opinion coming from a highly respected and influential filmmaker. Back when the GQ article was published and the same headlines from 2019 were coming back again, there were so many people either going after Scorsese for his comments or claiming that what he said was 100% right and that superhero movies are “destroying cinema.” It was essentially a battleground between Scorsese defenders and superhero fans arguing whether a certain type of movie was deemed “real cinema” or not.
Now, I guess it’s the appropriate time that I put in my two cents on this entire argument. Personally, I think both sides are at wrong here. First, let’s start with the Marvel fans. Like it or not, Martin Scorsese knows way more about cinema than I or anyone who reads this in the future probably ever will. He’s been in the film industry for several decades now. He’s seen the changes that Hollywood has gone through and has made some of the most incredible, important, and challenging films in cinema history. I’m also sure that he knows how the film industry works, so when he says that he’s concerned about franchises and comic-book movies being the bulk of what people are choosing to see in theaters, he’s saying that as someone who deeply cares about cinema and the future of it.
For the “Marvel movies are not cinema” part, it’s kind of a different story. Yes, it is a very hot take and there will no doubt be tons of people who will disagree with him, but they should also realize that what Scorsese said about Marvel movies is nothing more than just his opinion. It’s definitely a little dismissive (I’ll get more into it later) but it’s still an opinion and an opinion of someone who’s one of the most treasured filmmakers of all-time.
Even if someone disagrees with him, it does not give them the excuse to attack Scorsese, call him an “asshole” or say that any of his films “suck.” Sure, if a person likes Marvel movies more than anything that Scorsese has made, that’s fine. I can’t change that and that’s their subjective opinion. Openly slandering another person’s work just because they simply aren’t a fan of those movies isn’t criticism. You’re just being an asshole (Hey, that sounds awfully familiar to the guy you’re criticizing in the first place).
As for the Scorsese defenders, they should and also need to understand that what Scorsese said about Marvel movies is not objective! Just because Martin Scorsese is one of the most popular and influential filmmakers of all-time, it doesn’t automatically mean that whatever he says is 100% objective and is the truth. I’m not trying to say that Scorsese isn’t smart and doesn’t have a point because he definitely does and the guy is insanely smart, but it’s still his own subjective opinion on a specific genre of movies. Don’t go out acting like what he said was the “truth” and using him as a tool to attack Marvel or superhero movies.
This in particular frustrates me because all of these Scorsese defenders could be spending their time doing something that would actually support what Scorsese’s main concern is about the future of cinema. They could be spending their time supporting the films not part of a franchise that Hollywood actually puts out in theaters or they could be recommending the latest original films to people that haven’t yet seen them. Sadly, they would rather sit there in front of their computer screen and constantly complain about how “superhero movies are runining cinema” or that "Hollywood never makes anything original” instead of doing something actually productive with their time. Granted, people on the internet love negativity and cynicism more than anything else, so I shouldn’t be surprised, but it’s still frustrating to see.
How I feel about it?
I’m fully aware that this is just my opinion, but honestly, I don’t agree with what Martin Scorsese said about Marvel movies not being cinema. Personally, I love superhero movies and I really do love the Marvel Cinematic Universe a lot. I have watched and enjoyed most of the stuff they’ve released in the past 16 years and I’m more than willing to stick with the universe for the unforseeable future despite their missteps (Secret Invasion, Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania, The Marvels, etc.) Heck, I’m not ashamed to admit that my favorite movie of all time is a Marvel movie (Avengers: Endgame). For me, I definitely consider Marvel movies to be equally as much as “cinema” as something like Taxi Driver, Pulp Fiction, or Parasite in their own unique way. Despite being apart of a massive global franchise, it doesn’t take away any of the enjoyment I get from watching these movies and it doesn’t diminish any of the work being done by all these directors, producers, writers, and plenty of other people to deliver some truly great filmmaking and engaging stories. Whether you’re a fan of it or not, one has to respect Marvel for pulling off something that was once considered impossible. A cinematic universe that not only had fun action and great visual effects, but memorable characters and good storytelling.
However, even as someone who is a fan of the MCU, I can’t act like I don’t know where Martin Scorsese is coming from. While I don’t agree with him saying that these movies aren’t cinema, I do very much agree with him on the notion that comic-book movies and franchise movies have taken over much of what general audiences are seeing in movie theaters nowadays. As much as there’s tons of great stuff being done with modern franchises today, it shouldn’t be all of what the mass public watches when going to the movie theater. There should be a variety of options for people to choose when going to see a movie. Again, Hollywood has been chasing franchises for years and ever since Tim Burton’s Batman in 1989 (1978 if you go back to Richard Donner’s Superman), comic-book movies have proven to be a very profitable sub-genre, but now it feels like we’re at a point where that’s the only thing that audiences are willing to see in movie theaters. Even then, this past year has shown that the genre with multiple box-office failures (Ant-Man 3, The Marvels, all of the DC movies) might no longer be an automatic guarantee for success.
Going back to what Scorsese said in the New York Times article, his fear is just that the dominance of comic-book/franchise movies will ultimately lead to the diminishment of films not based on existing IP or are entirely original and made by up and rising filmmakers. Coming from someone who not just loves movies, but absolutely loves going to the movie theater, I don’t want a world where it’s nothing but franchises playing at our local multiplexes. Obviously, Hollywood still makes and produces original films on a semi-regular basis and thanks to streaming, people are being exposed to original stories every single day, but we have essentially lost a world where both franchise films and original films can be released in a theater and still make a lot of money. To remind you, the box-office is still the most lucrative way to profit off a movie and is still the best way to determine a movie’s success. Thanks to streaming, it’s practically made it near impossible for anything that’s not attached to something familiar to break out or get any kind of mainstream attention.
Sadly, despite all of this being at the core of what Scorsese was trying to say in the New York Times article, people are still stuck up on what the 81-year old filmmaker has to say about Marvel movies. I understand that journalists will always love stuff that will get them the most clicks, but think about what this entire discussion could’ve been about if they actually focused on what I’m sure Scorsese wanted people in the film industry to hear.
In Conclusion
Overall, Martin Scorsese said that Marvel movies aren’t cinema. Ok, so what? Whatever way you slice it, Scorsese’s opinion on Marvel movies is nothing more than just his opinion and that’s it. The same goes for my subjective opinion on Marvel movies as well. No matter how much you agree with it or disagree with it, it’s still an opinion. Just because he’s one of the most popular filmmakers in the world doesn’t mean it’s an immediate fact and just because he’s not a fan of Marvel movies doesn’t mean that he’s attacking anyone who enjoys them. I’m sorry but do these fanboys really expect someone like Scorsese to be really interested in what’s going to happen in the next Ant-Man adventure or what’s going on with Captain Marvel or Doctor Strange in the MCU?
At the end of the day, all that Marin Scorsese is worried about is the future of cinema being dominated by nothing but franchises, sequels, reboots, remakes, etc. Whether you’re a film lover or just someone who occasionally goes to the theater once or twice a month, it’s something that we should all be concerned about. I’m not saying that franchises need to stopped and that all of them need to die in favor of original ideas. What Scorsese, I, and plenty of others are asking for is just a little variety from the stuff that Hollywood puts out. That anyone can walk into a theater and have the chance to watch either a comic-book superhero movie (Guardians of the Galaxy), a comedy (Neigbors), a drama (The Fault in Our Stars), a thriller (Gone Girl), and plenty of other options.
With all of this, I sincerely hope that this whole discussion of are Marvel movies cinema or not will end. Granted, I’m probably not doing it any favors by bringing it up with this entire piece, but instead of just saying whether I agree with it or not, I wanted to get into the whole core of why this argument even started in the first place and that beneath it, there’s something way more important that people should be focusing on.
In case any of you here want to read these interview articles with Martin Scorsese, here they are.
https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/martin-scorsese-marvel-movies-not-cinema-theme-parks-1202178747/
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/opinion/martin-scorsese-marvel.html
https://www.gq.com/story/martin-scorsese-profile
Interesting article.
You know, I'd never even heard of this whole Scorsese vs MCU debate, ha! It's silly, like most pseudo-controversies are.
I grew up reading superhero comic books, so I was thrilled when they started making theses films. But over time, I feel like they've lost their edge. Maybe I've just become jaded, but they don't feel so interesting anymore.
I wouldn't go as far as Scorsese though. I mean, I'm sure he considers Nolan's "Iception" as cinema--who wouldn't? Now compare that to the first "Doctor Strange." Sure, the plots are different, but the two have so much in common, technically speaking, that I don't know how anyone could argue with a straight face that one is cinema and the other isn't.
No, I don't think that's the issue. I don't think franchises are either. Every time I worry about franchises taking over, I remind myself that franchises have been around for a long long looong time. Longer than most folks would think. One of the oldest is the Cisco Kid series that had 28 films made between 1914 (!!!) and 1994 (most of them in the 40s). The UK had "Carry on" (31 films, 1958-92) and still has "James Bond." Japan has "Kamen Rider" (95 films since 1971), "Super Sentai" (61 since 1975), and of course "Godzilla" (38 since 1954).
There's a fascinating list here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_series
And it's not even complete! The 40s were particularly rich with these long-running franchises: "East Side Kids" (22 films between 1940 and 1945), "Billy the Kid" (6 in only 2 years), or "Crime doctor" (10 films from 1943 to 1949).
So the way I see it, franchises are here to stay because they've ALWAYS been here. It's human nature. We like to reconnect with characters or concepts we enjoyed. It makes sense.
The real issue is not that, and Scorsese should know. And I suspect he does but perhaps had trouble articulating his thoughts (I haven't read his articles yet). The problem has more to do with quality, regardless of genre or franchise. And you see this same problem in non-franchise films too. And not just in films either. Heck, it's easier to spot in music--where a lot of the songs we hear on radio now all sound the same. In part because of auto-tune and in part because of how the songs are produced. It's less obvious in film, but it's a somewhat similar issue--that, to be fair, has always been there, it's just gotten worse.
You know that saying, follow the money? Well that's what producers are doing. It makes sense, of course, on a business level, but when they do that they tend to siphon down to the lowest common denominator. And it's as if with each generation the available range gets narrower and narrower.
Don't get me wrong, we still get great films. But if you look at the average number of classics per year, you'll find that that number dwindles as time passes.
It's a sad state of affair, but it is what it is.
As far as the MCU itself, I think it's a trend that, like every other trend, will eventually fade out. People will get bored. A lot of people already are. Doesn't mean they'll stop watching them, which is why it's still going. So long as those films make money, they'll keep making them.
Which brings me to something else I wanted to address in what you said. You wrote, regarding the MCU: "but now it feels like we’re at a point where that’s the only thing that audiences are willing to see in movie theaters."
It may FEEL that way, but I think it's inaccurate in two ways.
First, I still go watch MCU films even though I'd rather watch other stuff. In part because, well, like I said, I grew up to superheroes, so there's still a bit of a nostalgia feel going on there. Plus I really like some of the characters and stories (Dr. Strange, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc.) and am curious how things will develop. The fact that all those films are connected also makes it difficult to watch one without having watched the others, which kind of froces viewers to see them all. Kind of a genius move from the producers--though they were already doing that in the comics, to an extent, so it makes sense--but it can be grating for viewers after a while. So all this creates a spiralling effect, drawing people in deeper, and turning those films into the hits they are, regardless of how much people actually like or dislike them.
The second point is connected to the first. Because these films are so successful, we get more and more of these, to the detriment of others. But here's the thing. While no one's forcing anyone to go watch these, if that's all you got playing and you want to see something and you don't just outright hate the MCU, chances are you're gonna watch that film. If there had been more choice, perhaps you wouldn't have.
So appearances can be misleading--including the Box Office.
All the Box Office says is how many tickets were sold. It doesn't paint a full picture. Always keep that in mind.
Hollywood executives, sadly, do not. The numbers are all that matter to them.
And so here we are.